Separate SRS for different card elements

[maqroll]

I am trying out Kitsun.io for the first time. The biggest feature missing so far is that (as far as I can tell) SRS applies to a card as a whole, rather than individual questions within a card.

For instance: a Japanese vocab deck I am using has a card for the vocab word “pencil”. This card includes 3 review questions:
A. Show english word ‘pencil’ and ask me to enter the phonetic japanese word
B. Show the japanese kanji and ask me to identify the meaning
C. Play the audio of the phonetic japanese and ask me for the meaning

As far as I can tell, the SRS spacing of reviews applies to the whole card, rather than each of these individual elements, which creates issues. In this exampe, I am already good at [A] and [C], but I struggle to remember the kanji [B].

Two things happen as a result:

1. When I get [B] wrong, that brings the whole card down an SRS level, so I end up wasting time reviewing [A] and [C] a lot, even though I know them well.
2. Because the whole card follows the same SRS timing, I am always reviewing A, B, and C questions in the same review session. This means when I see a review for [B], I often have just seen [A] or [C], so I’m already primed that the “pencil” vocab will be in this review. This makes it easier to guess the answer to [B], even if I would not have recognized the kanji on their own.

For me, this is a big enough issue that it sort of defeats the purpose of the SRS system. If there is a way to fix this in settings, please let me know.

[seanblue]

Because the whole card follows the same SRS timing, I am always reviewing A, B, and C questions in the same review session. This means when I see a review for [B], I often have just seen [A] or [C], so I’m already primed that the “pencil” vocab will be in this review. This makes it easier to guess the answer to [B], even if I would not have recognized the kanji on their own.

I don’t know about the rest, but to alleviate this problem you can enable the “Delay Card Siblings” setting for the deck.

[TheSuicidalMuffin]

As Seanblue mentioned, ‘Delay Card Siblings’ creates a delay between when the different layouts of cards (phonetic, english meaning, japanese word from the english meaning) show up in your review.
I personally recommend not doing English-Japanese since I believe that time is better spent on immersion (more on this below). But if you are going to use it, I believe that @jprspereira who uses that layout a lot and is on this website 24/7 recommends a 23h interval between siblings to alleviate the problems you mentioned. Also, remember to turn on ‘blur spoilers’ in your deck settings so that the meaning doesn’t show up when you get the reading right and vice-versa.

Now here’s why I don’t recommend doing EN-JP layout but instead JP-EN and JP-Reading:

• Once you get a baseline for the meaning and reading of a word, it only takes hearing it a few dozen (and in the case of very versatile words hundreds) of times being used in real speech/writing to fully understand the word.
• Essentially, there’s no point trying to make links between English and Japanese which are almost never 1-1 unless you’re talking very technical vocab when you can just go to the source and learn by absorption how the word is actually used in speech and unconsciously acquire a ‘feel for it’.
• For instance, you can’t necessarily explain the difference between “hit” and “smack” with your words but if you’re a native English speaker or otherwise someone who has seen and heard those words used thousands of times, you can definitely ‘taste’ a nuanced difference between the two. You also wouldn’t pick up from a simple translation that smack can be used in sentences like “He was smack dab in the middle of the city.” or “The whole affair smacked of a government coverup.”
  A lot of the most basic and common words have dozens if not a hundred meanings and specific uses in the way they relate to other words (collocations) as well as a flush of set-expressions
  Just look at all the definitions of the English verb “To Get” or the Japanese verb 掛ける.

[s1212z]

Now here’s why I don’t recommend doing EN-JP layout but instead JP-EN and JP-Reading:

I have to say my experience is quite the opposite and EN->JP actually one of my favorite Kitsun features (I use all 3 card formats). I don’t really feel it slows my reviews too much (though it is extra obviously). I credit it to actually helping my spoken vocab just through SRS alone, I can actually extract new words much better than any input-only practice I’ve encountered. Contrary, WK alone actually has very little impact on any output for me (not surprisingly, it’s not what I’m practicing).

The Kitsun experience has been much better than KaniWani or KameSame IMO, essentially because it’s paired to reading/meaning within the deck reviews. So the synonym issue are really minimal for me. And if I pick the wrong word (but correct meaning), I make an honest judgement whether I can recall that particular word in a spoken context or I want more practice. In addition, I really prefer dictionary built cards so I can look at a word like やる or かける with alot of different meanings already included in the card that I can at least be familiar with, I’m not expecting En->Jp formats (or any format really) to vet out productive output nuances and probably better with immersion like you said and just overall translation practice. I try to have sentences included in my cards though along with audio examples if possible.

Essentially, there’s no point trying to make links between English and Japanese which are almost never 1-1

This sounds extreme but I think I know what you mean here (otherwise it disparages all flashcard efforts entirely ). Agreed, immersion is necessary for nuance and hopefully users are not practicing in a box that would lead to literal google-esq translations. However, for me I can’t rely on input only (SRS or immersion) to magically show up in either speaking or writing either…some learners say they can pull it off but it’s not me as an adult part-time learner not living in Japan, I have to practice it so I have it ready for the speed of real-time conversation.

[Buscadon]

Also, remember to turn on ‘blur spoilers’ in your deck settings so that the meaning doesn’t show up when you get the reading right and vice-versa.

Omg, that’s what that’s for. I had no idea what the blur tag in the styling was for since I never saw any change.

Essentially, there’s no point trying to make links between English and Japanese which are almost never 1-1 unless you’re talking very technical vocab when you can just go to the source and learn by absorption how the word is actually used in speech and unconsciously acquire a ‘feel for it’.

The thing is that Jp→En is just the reverse of En→Jp and has the same problem assuming that you aren’t changing information contained in each flashcard. I understand if you’re talking something that is reductive like “blunt → 鈍い” instead of something like “blunt, dull [so on] → 鈍い” though. If you’re talking about removing the English part, then ofc Jp→En wouldn’t work either.

The only reasonable thing I could think of to do is to read Japanese definitions and practice meanings from non-verbal demonstrations, like pictures, as well as focusing on in-context examples. However, I don’t really think this is a good strategy for people who aren’t advanced because you need to be able to have a strong grip on the definition/sense of the word, not a loose gist of what it’s saying.

I’m not at this level in Japanese, but in Spanish I use a mix of Sp→En, En→Sp, Definition → Sp, and Image → Spanish.

This sounds extreme but I think I know what you mean here (otherwise it disparages all flashcard efforts entirely ).

I would disagree that it’s extreme. A common goal in learning words from context (which is really stressed in the language classes I’ve taken) is removing English as the link (or generally getting rid of L1→L2), so that you start out with a more natural understanding of the word, even if limited to the context you find it in. While everyone’s goal is different, a common idea is to eventually not have to use L1 to think of what you want to say in L2, so methods that take L1 out of the picture can be effective for that.

A lot of the most basic and common words have dozens if not a hundred meanings and specific uses in the way they relate to other words (collocations) as well as a flush of set-expressions

You’re totally right! I think that’s a question of learning those collocations either individually or from life experience.

I credit it to actually helping my spoken vocab just through SRS alone, I can actually extract new words much better than any input-only practice I’ve encountered

Along these lines it can help just you interpret/translate to Japanese from English more quickly, even with the problem of words not being 1 to 1.

In addition, I really prefer dictionary built cards so I can look at a word like やる or かける with alot of different meanings already included in the card that I can at least be familiar with, I’m not expecting En->Jp formats (or any format really) to vet out productive output nuances and probably better with immersion like you said and just overall translation practice.

↑ This is a good point, no reasonable format is really going to give you a very comprehensive understanding of a word, the main purpose is to give you a base understanding that you can build upon by using/hearing/reading the word.

[s1212z]

I would disagree that it’s extreme.

I don’t think anyone is actually disagreeing on this point, I just thought the mention “there’s no point trying to make links between English and Japanese” sounded funny because it essentially renders Kitsun or KW as useless since it’s basically a 1 to 1 training mechanism (which is obviously not useless at all, but not the end all either). I don’t think that is what was meant though.

But generally many nouns are pretty reductive though…just often with various synonyms but I don’t need extensive exposure for 犬 or 雲 to use it. And many I can make use straight from SRS without any additional immersion…though I’ve certainly been corrected on context/usage for certain words, but that’s expected.

While everyone’s goal is different, a common idea is to eventually not have to use L1 to think of what you want to say in L2, so methods that take L1 out of the picture can be effective for that.

Agreed, language just moves too fast otherwise

[Buscadon]

I don’t think anyone is actually disagreeing on this point, I just thought the mention “there’s no point trying to make links between English and Japanese” sounded funny because it essentially renders Kitsun or KW as useless since it’s basically a 1 to 1 training mechanism (which is obviously not useless at all, but not the end all either).

Ah, that’s true. It’s not going to take you all the way but it will definitely take you far.

But generally many nouns are pretty reductive though…just often with various synonyms but I don’t need extensive exposure for 犬 or 雲 to use it. And many I can make use straight from SRS without any additional immersion…though I’ve certainly been corrected on context/usage for certain words, but that’s expected.

Not just nouns, any word really. PM what I’m saying is that only knowing 鈍い as “blunt,” you sure can use it, but it’s reducing its potential meaning down to one English word that might make it hard to understand or find its more precise meaning(s). I’ve definitely had cases where I only know a word by one English equivalent, and wasn’t able to understand what the overall sentence meant until I looked it up and found another possible translation. At the end of the day I’m still understanding the Japanese word by lining it up with an English word, but really what’s important there is that this English word is closer to the way the word is being used, and will let me make that transition between the English sense and the Japanese sense easier. So in summary, knowing more English equivalents gives you more base points to transition into a natural understanding of each word. They aren’t always necessary, but they definitely can help.